The Impacts of an Overvalued Society on Consumerism

CZ – Good evening, everyone. For those who don’t know me, my name is Carlos Zegarra. I am part of an organization called Sachamama, and like every last Wednesday of the month, we are here with you, bringing you a new SachamamaTalks where we invite guests to have intentional conversations about topics that we believe are important for us and our communities. I’m happy to be here once again with all of you, and today I am joined by Aura Vázquez, who is a great friend, and we will be discussing the impacts of an overvalued society on consumerism. When we talk about climate change, global warming, which is the correct term, we understand that it is a complex issue, a big problem, and it sometimes hinders us from taking proactive action because we may think that our actions won’t have an impact, that they won’t make a difference. But in reality, I believe that our actions do have an impact, that we can make a difference, and there are many ways we can connect with this work, with this movement, to bring about changes on an individual or collective level. And why not reevaluate the way we live? Not only contribute to the protection of our environment and communities, but also reassess our lifestyles and perhaps adopt more sustainable, regenerative models that align with the health of our common home. So, Aura Vázquez, a great friend and leader in the movement, is joining me here today. Aura, how are you? Thank you so much for being here with me, with the entire Sachamama family.


AV – Thank you for the invitation. It’s great to see you. It’s a very important topic to discuss, especially considering everything that is happening around the world, to have a conversation about our contribution and involvement in addressing global warming and climate change.


CZ – Absolutely. Just to provide a bit of context, how long have we known each other? We’ve known each other for about ten years, right?


AV – Well, ten years, yes, quite some time. I was recently having coffee with a friend and telling her about Sachamama and how I feel proud because I also had a part in its creation. I remember we met because I spoke at a march, the first march against the Keystone pipeline in Los Angeles. We were protesting because thirty percent of the city’s energy came from coal. I spoke at that march, at that rally, and that’s when we met. You sent me a message, and then you started working with us, supporting us at the Sierra Club, and now, ten years later, we’re still here.


CZ – We’re still in the fight, right? Well, so much has happened, and I truly feel more hopeful about everything we’re experiencing. I think what has happened over the past year with issues of environmental justice and equity has truly changed the movement. We’re approaching it in a more comprehensive way, where we can truly address not only this problem but also many other issues that contribute to the current state of climate change and global warming. To start off, I would like to share some information from a good friend of mine named Mathis Wackernagel, the founder of the Global Footprint Network. They study the ecological footprint every year, analyzing our consumption and expenditure. Last year, ecological overshoot began in July, in the third week of July.

CZ – That means that it takes our planet one year and five months to regenerate the resources that we consume in one year. I remember when we were talking, and I mentioned that it improved a bit due to the COVID situation, as there was a temporary balance. However, now we fear that things are not going well with the COVID situation, but they will definitely improve. We will start to see the curve go down again, and those numbers will spike once more, right? So, we enter a conversation about how we can share this information in a way that empowers individuals to get involved, to understand that this is a collective issue, where we are all affected, and where we can all benefit as we find solutions. It’s quite a crazy figure, isn’t it?


AV – There are several interesting things that happened during the pandemic that I observed. But before discussing that, I wanted to share a bit about the urgency we currently feel to take action against global warming, against climate change. I believe that now we have a greater awareness, not just those of us who have advocated for this. I have been involved in this matter since I was a child. I am Colombian, and I started when I was eleven years old after watching a TV program that talked about the ozone layer and taught me about the consequences of global warming. The sense of urgency that comes with it, for example, the Green New Deal, which started as a visionary idea, and many people have embraced it. However, during the pandemic, several things happened. We reduced air pollution, that is, we reduced greenhouse gas emissions because many of us were not driving. I live here in Los Angeles, and air pollution decreased significantly. However, we also witnessed a lot of trash in the oceans.


And that brings us to the topic you want to address, which is how much we consume, how much we spend. There are only a few cities that are considered zero waste, meaning they don’t produce waste, they recycle everything, they reuse everything. They have composting and many other measures to avoid throwing everything we use back into the world. We saw a lot of trash in the oceans, face masks ended up in the mouths of many animals, sadly even in the ocean. We saw many people abandoning their values and methods of not littering. We saw a completely different behavior due to reduced budgets for waste management and fewer garbage collection visits. Now we can talk about personal consumerism, without even mentioning capitalism and how we live in a city, in a world that depends on us spending, buying, throwing away, and repeating the cycle over and over again. For example, it is not the same for us here in the United States, a highly consumerist country where media and social networks constantly tell you that you need to buy the new iPhone because last year’s model is not good enough, that you can have a better one, that the color you’re wearing is no longer fashionable, and there’s a new one. They constantly invite you to buy, buy, buy, and they have created an addiction to consumerism.


CZ – Absolutely. I think the challenge is, and we discussed this, how the entire system itself is extractive. We are based on these processes of extraction, production, distribution, and disposal. It’s a cycle that never stops, and if it does, economies collapse, GDP drops, everything comes to a halt. So, I agree that we need to reassess the way we live, and companies and everyone else should also reassess how to transition from an extractive system to a regenerative one. Instead of extracting, we should focus on regeneration. I believe we are witnessing this change as many companies are shifting their mindset and creating spaces for new sustainable models within their businesses. It’s not about labeling capitalism as bad and rejecting it entirely.

AV – That’s how it is where we live.


CZ – Exactly, how can we make it work in a way that aligns more with our planet?


AV – More awareness, more consciousness. Well, I feel hopeful when I see, for example, textile companies becoming more conscious of the materials they use. Textiles are so toxic and require so much energy that they can’t be recycled. Now I see a movement among young people to reuse second-hand clothes, which you can find in the United States and other places. I also think that this issue speaks a lot about classism and highlights that those who have more resources are the ones who consume the most. They are the ones flying on private jets and having extravagant dinners with excessive amounts of food. You don’t see the same behavior in poorer communities or in developing countries compared to developed countries like the United States. The way we consume here is incredible, compared to countries like Ecuador or others where people take care of their shoes, clean them, and use them for a long time. In Colombia, for example, where I’m from, trees have license plates like cars. You can’t simply cut down trees like they do here in the United States, where they cut down trees to build buildings and no one says anything. In Colombia, there are regulations and departments dedicated to tree preservation. But earlier, we talked a bit about our role as individuals in this aspect and how the system has been created to keep pushing us, telling us that we need more, that we want more, that we should leave the lights on all day and have the air conditioning running because when we come home, we want to feel the cool air if it’s hot outside. There are many things we can personally do to raise awareness. It’s also about personal relationships and the values we learn from our families. My family taught me from a young age to take care of things, to reuse, not because we didn’t have enough, but because they understood that there’s a limit to what we can accumulate. Here in the United States, people often use storage units because they have too many things and they don’t fit in their homes. So, there are many aspects of consumerism that I hope companies, schools, hospitals, and every sector can drastically reduce their consumption because, in the end, all of this ends up in the oceans and landfills, and much of it is irretrievable. Plastic, for example, never degrades or returns to the earth.


CZ – And the more consumerism there is, the more expensive all products become, and the higher the cost of raw materials. I also believe that, partly because of what we were just discussing, companies are realizing the need for change and are restructuring capitalism to some extent, without fully abandoning it. I think one of the reasons this is happening is because companies are realizing that it also makes sense for their business model, do you understand? For example, in the coffee industry, the impacts of climate change are devastating. If I don’t take action to improve the land, maintain relationships with coffee growers, and ensure their sustainable livelihoods on their farms, my business will suffer. So, partly, we are gradually changing our mindset, but on the other hand, businesses are also recognizing that it is beneficial for them to embrace these changes. It’s a combination of the industry and system needing to transform from that perspective, and it’s also about us, individuals like you and me, and where we fit into this equation. We need to be aligned and resonate in the same way, as if we are all on this bus together. It’s not about completely stopping consumption, but rather consuming in a regenerative way. Our planet operates in cycles—everything is governed by cycles on a planetary, animal, and plant level. We, as humans, are also governed by cycles. Until we align ourselves with these natural cycles, we will always struggle with the system. We are the only living beings that do not live in harmony with the planet’s natural cycles.

AV – Even schools don’t follow the sunlight, for example, to make the best use of it. There are many contradictions. But I believe that companies are also changing because consumers are demanding it. Look at the profits of companies like Chipotle, for example, a company that has ethical practices when it comes to animals and uses certain ingredients in their food. They have made tremendous profits because that’s what people want now. People want to know that what they consume is good for the environment, good for themselves, and good for the community they are a part of. So, what we need to continue doing is educating and empowering the community. Many people feel trapped in this system and believe they can’t escape it. So, we need to show them that there is another way of doing things that is just as beautiful, and in fact, better for our planet. That’s the part we, as organizers who have been working against extractive practices like coal, natural gas, plastic, methane, fracking, and other practices that contribute to global warming and are harmful to us, have been focusing on for many years. Now, there is greater awareness, and a new generation, as we saw with young activists like Greta, who have become symbols. They are the new generation of environmentalists who want to see something different. I’m talking about young people who are saying, “What kind of planet are we going to inherit if we continue like this?” They are demanding change from companies urgently. And I have to say, I haven’t seen another young generation take action like they do. It’s inspiring to see how determined they are to put an end to these extractive practices. They confront those in power boldly and without shame.


CZ – They are speaking to power directly and boldly.


AV – Without shame or hesitation, they do it.

CZ – Exactly. And I think that’s what is needed because we have tried for a long time to cover this up, to try to be polite, to know how to play within the system, when in reality the extractive industries don’t do that. They don’t play by fair rules, they’re always trying to find loopholes. So we also have to learn a bit from them, thinking also about what you mentioned about the changes we are seeing when specifically referring to our Latino community, what challenges do we face in informing, raising awareness, and supporting these communities. We know that it’s not that they don’t care because Latinos do care about these issues, but the reality is that our community, like over four billion people in the world, wakes up every day trying to meet their basic needs: food, water, education, health. So, if we are a community that is more aligned with these issues, perhaps due to our heritage, that we are not so disconnected from the land, a couple of generations at most, but at the same time, we are a community that is not so involved in this movement, right? So, I think that is a good example to talk a little bit about why that is not happening, why there is this apathy, why when one talks about these issues there is a disconnect. Obviously, there are priorities that must be met to support their families. But on the other hand, there is a disconnection within ourselves and among ourselves and with our environment, and that is part of this issue, how we approach these conversations in a way that is not about guilt, where it’s not about blaming each other, but rather finding spaces where we can connect and not necessarily talk about the issue of global warming, but rather about the fact that you need renewable energy, clean water, and all these resources that you need to survive. The more these resources are in line with what the planet can produce, the better off you will be, and the better off we will all be. But I believe we are not there yet, I believe there is still discord and we remain in this space.


AV – It’s about raising awareness, I think we still need to raise awareness among our people. Because despite the fact that our people need to get more involved, I think that Latinos in general are already somewhat environmentalists. I mean, we use reusable bags. I never saw my grandmother carrying a plastic bag when I was growing up, she had her reusable bag, and I grew up seeing her with her little bag, which I would love to have today if I ever see one like the one she had. My mother, for example, she reused everything. Even to this day, she keeps jars from yogurt, and she plants her plants in the olive jar. And if you look in my kitchen, if I could show you, I do the same. I keep all the glass containers, I plant my plants in them so they can grow and then I can plant them. There are many practices that we have in Colombia, for example, like taking the bus. That’s a very common practice in Latin America, or the metro or something like that, in the city because there are other economic factors at play. Many people in our Latin American countries don’t have the money to own a car, a truck, or an electric car, so that has also forced us to naturally adopt these practices. The thing is, now with lobbying, advocating for our land in a way to reach those who have the power to make decisions, it’s something new for our people. I mean, calling the president or sending a letter to the congressman who represents you, or even the mayor, is something that is quite new. And in many Latin American countries, where people have emigrated to the United States and have experienced situations where they have seen corruption, where they see that the people who are usually close to politicians, who have connections with politicians, are people they label as corrupt.

They come here, and we Latinos are telling them that they have to get involved, that they have to call their mayor, or their councilmember, or call their congressperson. They see this as a bit dirty, that they are no longer so pure, that we are no longer “our people,” but that we now have a relationship with them. So, with the history they bring from their country, they think that this is wrong. In Colombia, there is an expression that says “estar en la rosca” (being in the inner circle), which means having relationships with decision-makers, people in power, and that is frowned upon, for example, in my country. I have spoken with people from other cultures, Mexicans, Salvadorans, and they have their expressions, and they say the same thing, “it’s not that the government is very corrupt.” So when you say, “Okay, let’s go to the mayor’s office to tell them about the natural gas plant issue in your neighborhood,” they say, “But that doesn’t make sense, why would I want to get involved with them?” It’s cultural. We have to learn a little bit about what works for our communities, so that they can continue to get involved and educate themselves at the same time. Because here, it’s a very different matter, and it has a lot of power for us to get involved and speak up, and it has a lot of power for many of our compatriots or other Latinos in our community to talk about these issues. Now, in many of our countries, social leaders are killed, so there is also that risk that they might think that if they speak up here, something like that might happen to them. There are many things to consider. But talking a little bit about personal responsibility, I think we still have a long way to go because it’s not just us advocating with councilmembers or world leaders, we can also do it, for example, with corporations that can have a huge impact and can change their practices. It might be something different for Latinos and something more accessible for them in terms of being more cultural, not that we are going to get dirty and compromise our integrity, but that what we want is to work for our community. It might help them see another aspect of this branch of consumerism that we are all in because that’s how the world is.

CZ – And it will also help them, or help us all, to work more towards solving this challenge of global warming. It will help us all have a happier, healthier life. There are two issues. First, on a personal level, I can’t think that someone else will solve the problem for me. If we have that mindset, it’s complicated. If we put our faith in politicians, it will take a while because the reality is that our politicians don’t know what to do. The reality is that politicians and industries have brought us to this point. We have to change our perspective and say, “No, no one will solve this for me. I have to solve it myself. I have to play my role.” But I don’t have to solve global warming. It is a byproduct of what we want. Because we want green communities, we want healthy communities, we want clean jobs where we can live and thrive. And as a result of all that, we will solve global warming. So, there is a different way to approach these issues because if it hasn’t affected me, as you mentioned, if it hasn’t affected you, it affects everyone differently. People in Central America who are migrating, climate refugees, thousands of people who have to leave their land because it’s no longer livable. Puerto Rico with the hurricanes that devastated the island.

AV – In the organizing model that I have used all these years, it’s a model of building relationships, of learning about the other person and finding common ground to reach what we believe in. There is a principle that I love and I talk about it a lot, which is that the first revolution is internal.

CZ -Completamente, que el cambio comienza dentro de ti.


AV –Exacto, ahi mismo es el cambio, comienza dentro de ti, que lo primero es que nosotros tenemos muchísima toxicidad con nosotros mismos y esa toxicidad se ha reflejado en otras cosas, en nuestro entorno. Por ejemplo, como nos hablamos a nosotros mismos, lo que pensamos a veces nosotros de nosotros mismos y se lo contamos a la gente y se asustan, no es una crítica, pero esto nos pasa a todos y como eso se ha reflejado en macro en el mundo, como hemos nosotros colectivamente manifestado, hemos llegado a manifestar esta realidad de lo que nosotros pensamos que somos nosotros de nuestros propios traumas, de nuestras propias cosas, que no hemos funcionado y trabajado. Y como eso se ha reflejado en el mundo y eso puede ser un concepto bastante complicado y complejo para la gente, pero de hecho es muy simple, porque entonces, si nosotros creemos que yo no soy suficiente para mí, entonces el mundo nunca va a ser suficiente para mí, entonces no importa cuánto si Phones yo me compre o cuantos Teslas o cuantos edificios, o cuartos tenga en mi casa o no. Entonces yo pienso que nosotros también tenemos que llegar a ese punto. Lo lindo de trabajar en comunidad y de hacer estas relaciones, de comenzar a hablar de estos traumas colectivos que para muchos de nosotros, vienen desde la colonización, acuérdate que nosotros aquí en las Américas somos individuos que nos colonizaron, que hubo un trauma tremendo generacional, que todavía estamos batallando y de muchas maneras eso se ha manifestado en las prácticas que tenemos con el consumismo y el capitalismo.


CZ -Totalmente. Y eso que tu dices de verdad es quemas cierto, no puede ser, hasta que nosotros no nos demos nuestro propio espacio y no nos valoremos como individuos desconectados completamente del mundo exterior, nada va a llenar esos espacios, y creo que por ahí también podemos encaminarnos un poco a ese trabajo que nosotros debemos hacer a manera individual cada uno de nosotros. Todo esto está pasando ,lo que lo que te decía hace un momento miles de personas están siendo afectadas por esto(el cambio climático) el hecho de que yo no esté siendo afectado por esto en este momento no quiere decir que yo no pueda sentir empatía por toda la comunidad que está siendo afectado por esto y que si nosotros no hacemos algo, en algún momento nos vamos a afectar nosotros también, porque va a tocar a todo el mundo y afectar a todo el mundo, eso lo dijo el último reporte del IPCC que salió, eso ya es transversales, hay un consenso general, está muy claro entonces tenemos que revaluar, eso nosotros, porque no podemos, somos seres sociales por naturaleza. Nosotros crecemos, y prosperamos en sociedad, no individualmente, porque no empezamos en abrir un poco más nuestros espacios y entender que esto no es sólo yo, que yo no soy el que tengo que tenerme y protegerme y cuidarme delos demás para poder estar bien, sino que tengo que compartir, que extender, que abrir mis espacios para trabajar con los demás y para así poder yo no solucionar estos retos porque al yo solucionar los retos de mi comunidad, yo estoy mirando mis retos, al yo elevar mi comunidad, yo me estoy elevando a mí mismo. Entonces es como esta ideología de que nosotros estamos separados aquí, en este espacio.


AV –Aquí estamos todos en esto.


CZ -Y creo que nuestras comunidades ancestrales lo tenían muy claro nuestras comunidades indígenas, tenían muy claros los principios de convivencia y de interconexión e interdependencia con nuestro planeta tierra. Y como nosotros aprendemos de ellos, que durante milenios han protegido este planeta y traer un poco esas lecciones que les ha funcionado a ellos y que nosotros estamos tan necesitados en la actualidad. Ahí también hay muchísima pasta para hablar cuando hablamos de esto, pero como para cerrar y aterrizando este tema, como crees tú que nosotros debemos empezar a hablar como o cuáles son algunas de las maneras que podemos empezar a compartir estos temas con la comunidad para involucrarlos más, para hacer más, para transmitir la urgencia, estos temas y la necesidad de que todos nos involucremos y que todos tenemos un rol y una responsabilidad en esto.

AV –Claro, yo pienso que nosotros tenemos que comenzar a hablarle a nuestros niños de la situación en la que estamos.Yo sé que en la comunidad latina obviamente tenemos muchísimos otros problemas que vienen primero, que los hablábamos más temprano: que sí tenemos donde vivir en Estados Unidos, el asunto de la inmigración, por ejemplo. Hay mucho de nuestras personas, de nuestra comunidad que son inmigrantes y no han podido ajustar su estatus migratorio, aquí es demasiado estresante. Pero cómo hacemos para que podamos amplificar un poco el mensaje, que no estoy yo sola. Creo que estamos todos. Y entonces a mi me gusta muchísimo este trabajo de hablar con los vecinos y de hablar con la familia y de sentarse en la mesa y dar gracias de los frutos y de la comida que tenemos, que es una práctica que no es extraña para nosotros, los latinos en nuestra comunidad.Que nos involucremos con organizaciones que conocemos, que son respetables y que quieren hacer un buen trabajo para el medio ambiente y para nuestra comunidad también yo pienso que nosotros tenemos que ahora ser muy valientes, porque ahora nos tenemos que definitivamente cambiar, no únicamente cambiar el color del pelo ni las cosas que nos ponemos cada verano, cada invierno, pero cambiar nuestra manera de ser, cuánto gastamos? Miren alrededor de su casa en este momento y miren cuánto plástico tienen alrededor de su casa y comiencen a pensar cómo pueden disminuir eso. Cuáles son las cosas que pueden comprar, que son reusables y ahora estamos en un mundo en el que eso se ha convertido en algo muy común, ósea, que puedes encontrar bolsas reusables que puedes encontrar cosas para la cocina, por ejemplo, antes tu tapabas la comida que te sobraba con papel aluminio ahora ya no, ahora pueden usar una cocinita hecha de wax que es súper sostenible. Ahora puedes comprar tus zapatos que los hace de los productos reciclables de océano del plástico que sacan del océano, por ejemplo. Hay muchísimas prácticas, ahora puedes sembrar tomates en tu casa y entonces no los tienes que comprar, ahora en las comunidades que son de más bajos recursos hay una práctica que a mí me encanta, tienen jardines, algunos tienen limones, los otros tienen tomates, ellos se intercambiar que es una práctica muy indígena. Sembrar el maíz y que no haya sido genéticamente modificado, por ejemplo, y el maíz es algo tan representativo de nosotros los latinos, el chocolate todas esas maneras de hacerlo, de que en una casa no haya si no un carro en vez de que haya tres porque hay tres adultos. Aquí en Los Ángeles, o en las ciudades que son más grandes, donde el sistema público no es muy robusto. Cómo hacemos para salir más en las bicicletas con los niños? En vez de montarnos en el carro a ir al supermercado, podemos ir todos en bicicleta? Entonces comencemos a pensar como nosotros personalmente también podemos bajar nuestro consumo y también bajar nuestra emisión de gases de efecto invernadero, que es posible. Y eso también nos ayuda a ahorrar un montón de dinero ósea usar todas esas cosas reusables, es tremendo porque también te ahorra dinero. Entonces yo creo que las cosas que podemos hacer, no podemos dejar atrás el trabajo del cabildismo y de la organización comunitaria y de abogar por nuestra tierra, porque esos miedos nos van a tocar sobrepasarlos para poder tener un mismo un mundo que sea vibrante para nosotros, para todos nosotros.


CZ –Si completamente. Creo que ya lo has dicho tú, el cambio el cambio comienza en uno primero y son esos procesos internos que le dan la oportunidad a uno como para integrar esos procesos para adueñarse de ese espacio, para poderlo compartir, y una vez tú lo tienes, lo integras y lo puedes compartir de una manera más efectiva con tu comunidad.

Algo que me quedo así, claro, con lo que tú me estás compartiendo ahorita es como el poder de nuestra compra, porque si por un lado no es solo todo lo que tu comentaste a nivel mío individual. Pero por otro lado también es lo que eso representa para las compañías, tú estás apostando en esas compañías, tu está diciéndole ala compañía, creo en usted, en la compañía que es más sustentable y consciente y estás invirtiendo en esa compañía para que esa compañía crezca. Entonces cada vez que tu haces una compra, tú lo estás haciendo es una inversión, entonces en qué modelos estoy invirtiendo en qué compañía estoy invirtiendo. Y eso es un poder que como consumidores tenemos es un poder grandisimo. Ahora el tema también, lo que tu dijiste, entonces yo diría que se definen en esos tres: para empezar y para cerrar también esta charla, por un lado esta el poder de nuestra compra. Por otro lado, lo que tu dijiste de involucrarnos, de cabildear, de hablar ese es el poder nuestra voz, mirar eso y empoderarnos a nosotros mismos para coger esos espacios, y también involucrarse, el poder de nuestro tiempo, involucrarnos con organizaciones que de una u otra manera se alinean con lo que es importante para nosotros. Ahí esta tiempo, voz y dinero. Y si empezamos a trabajar esos tres espacios, yo creo que cada vez vamos a empezar a liberar menos y menos impacto, que es lo que todos queremos y que al fin y al cabo lo podemos hacer, estamos en un momento a nivel global donde ya están esas posibilidades. Hace unos años era muy difícil hablar de esto. Ahora si, tú puedes vivir una vida sostenible, puedes vivir una vida con mucho menos impacto, cosa que no podías hacer en el pasado, tenemos la tecnología, tenemos las oportunidades, tenemos todo para para hacer esta transición hacia un mundo más sano, más justo y más equitativo para todos. Aurita muchísimas gracias por tu tiempo. Gracias por tuinsight y bueno, donde se puede seguir la gente antes de que nos despidamos.


AV-Bueno, si quieren seguir con estas conversaciones del cambio climático y de organizar, pueden encontrarme en Aura Vásquez oficial en las redes. Entonces por ahí no vemos. Gracias por este espacio. Gracias por seguir elevando las voces de muchos de nosotros que trabajamos en este en este asunto y que muchos no nos conocen. Entonces aquí vamos haciendo que la tribu crezca cada vez más.


CZ-Asimismo vamos aumentando la tribu, la familia. Y para todos los que se añaden el día de hoy muchísimas gracias. Como ya saben, todos los últimos miércoles del mes tenemos un invitado y tocamos un tema para compartir con ustedes y traer algo de luz y de herramientas para que todos vivamos de una manera más sana, más sustentable y más en armonía con nosotros, entre nosotros y con nuestro medio ambiente. Muchísimas gracias a todos los que nos acompañaron gracias a ti Aura y bueno, seguimos la conversación el siguiente mes.


AV -chao

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